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Friday, 18 June 2010

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Jo Bride

Well I am not a photographer but i am a 'bride' (to be!) and i think this is an excellent article and superbly well written with really well argued (you aren't really arguing are you!) points. love your blog and think i will keep visiting even once i'm married just for all the eye candy! by the way, i emailed you earlier this evening i know u are probs inundated but pls email back when u get a moment. think you will like!
J.O xxxxxx

Teresa Hatfield

Bravo! Bravo! Very well said however I am shocked that there are wedding bloggers cheeky enough to feature a photographers work without prior consent. That's terrible!!
I am very proud to announce I have never done this and even though my blog is nothing compared to the more popular blogs (like yours) I still wouldn't steal photos from a fellow blogger - that's theft!

Regards
Teresa xx (twiceasnicedoublewedding.blogspot.com)

anna and the ring

Well it just seems like common sense to me.

Kay (and I Need A Blog!)

anna and the ring: common sense indeed but as we all know even the most highly educated phd students often lack in that department! sometimes it needs spelling out !! good point made v well.

Lucy

Well said Annabel, as a supplier I love follwoing blogs and there are a few blogs that I really really enjoy, however I have noticed 'quick buck' newbies popping up recently that have blatently ripped off ideas from established blogs (one in particular it's almost painful to see!) As a wedding stationer I am happy to have a niche market but I also have alot of friends in the same field I wouldnt hesitate to recommend if my stationery wasn't right for my client- you know why? Because they are all amazing designers and great at what they do. It's all about respect x

Clair (wedding-inspirtation.com)

This should be a necessity rather than taken for granted. People need to learn to respect others work and not abuse it!

Good article, well written and precisely to the point!

Clair

Annabel ~ Love My Dress Wedding Blog

Hi All :)
Thanks for taking the time to read my article and leave your comments. I've received quite a few more comments too via email and private Twitter message - all very encouraging and great to see we're all thinking in more of a 'community' fashion :)
Much love,
Annabel :) xXx

Tenielle

Brilliant advice and insight, as newbies in the industry we find this sort of info priceless....to know where we can stand in an incredibly saturated and sometimes overwhelming industry. Thank you! :)

Rosanna

Annabel,
with NO INTENT to be polemical... I think you are almost totally off-base.
How many photographers ask for permission to post the work of wedding designers, the persons who actually do the wonderful design that they feature on their blogs JUST because they took a shoot at it? Well, VERY FEW.
If you browse blogs of wedding photographers you hardly (VERY hardly) see the credits to the floral designers and the wedding designers, LET ALONE asking for permission before publishing a creation they (the wedding designer when it comes to venue and wedding styling and the decor, and the floral designer when it comes to floral centerpieces and decor) actually created. The photographer photographs even the bridal look without asking permission to the make-up artist, hair stylist or bridal consultant, then put THEIR work on HIS/HER blog without even informing them.
So the photographers want bloggers to ask permission because....???????

Ann Guise

I have an 'Advice' article appearing verbatim on several websites and the article is supposedly written by the owners of those sites! On 2 occasions the article was removed but it is still on several others despite my contacting the owners to remove it!
If I had a credit it would be something. It is INFURIATING!!

Annabel ~ Love My Dress Wedding Blog

Hi Rosanna, For the purposes of this article, I wrote in the context of Wedding Bloggers using Photographers work. It is simply unacceptable for a Wedding Blogger (any other website owner infact) to lift images from a Photographers website and use them without asking. It is impolite and bad manners. The Photographer is 'Intellectual Property Rights Owner' by law of *these images*, so legally, you simply MUST seek persmission to reproduce those images anywhere else. That is the law.

A lot of the wedding photographers I work with do actually credit key aspects of the photoshoot - the venue, florist, wedding dress designer etc, and if they don't, then I attempt ot do so via my 'real wedding feature' of their work (I always liaise directly with the Bride and have a quetionnaire via which I am able to obtain this information).
If you are saying 'OK Annabel, well in that case, EVERY creative element that helped make the photograph possible needs crediting', then who do I credit for the fresh air and sunshine in the shots? Sorry, I don't mean to sound facetious, but....didn't a previous commenter mention 'common sense'...? :)

In answer to your question - Photographers want Bloggers to ask permission because, it is polite and good manners to do so. Wedding Photographers showcase their work on their own blogs because they want to celebrate their work and use it as a marketing tool to promote their brand to potential customers. Its just exactly like having a shop front - you just wouldn't go in and photocopy the photographs just to show in your store would you, even if you put a sign up saying "these Photographs belong to Mr Joe Bloggs"....? That would be exceptionally rude and bad mannered.

Also, just to make a point about Photographers "putting THEIR work (the florists, designers etc) on HIS/HER blog without even informing them". Actually , they are not strictly putting 'their work' on their blogs (I mean, I can't sit and physically lift out a bunch of flowers from my screen - or a dress and go away and wear it for that matter, can I?), the photographer is in fact putting thier own visual interpretation of 'other people's work' on their site. And I think in almost all cases, any designer, supplier, dress maker etc involved in the wedding industry accepts that 'their work' is going to be photographed and that that they have no control over the distribution of those photographs because, the photographs are the legal property of the Photographer to do with what they wish.

i do think you've missed my point a little, but I value your comment - thanks so much :)

It would be interesting to know if your perspective was coming from that of a Photographer, Bride, Designer, Supplier etc :)

Ann - as someone who has worked with you previously and featured your work (fully credited with permission sought!) I am aware of your plight. It must be dreadfully frustrating. This case in example demonstrates clearly the frustrations and offence that the copying of 'material and designs without permission.

Thanks for taking time to comment on my feature both,

Annabel :)

Rosanna

Annabel,
my perspective is a bride-to-be's AND a wedding designer. Although it's true that one can't lift flowers out of a pic, it is also true that the florist designer didn't just put the flowers in place.. s/he put the design in place to begin with.
Now, we all know that photographers (at least good ones) have an eye for "catchy details", such as - for example - a great flower arrangement (that can be copied too!!! And I mean the DESIGN). Nobody can claim that a photographer doesn't have the right to his/her own pictures. However, unless the pictures are landscapes, featuring an outfit, a centerpiece, the decoration of a room isn't ONLY the photographer's doing.
In a similar way, a blogger doesn't JUST put pictures in his or her entry. The readers are called readers because they READ a blog, ie: it isn't JUST pictures, it's the comments about the pictures, the discussion the blog entry generates and the interactions the blog entry fosters, spuns.
If you speak about politeness, well, then photographers DO have something to learn. Too many of them don't credit the vendors involved in the very same event they want to be credited for without having actually designed and organized it.
I think that photographers have the GROSS misrepresentation that to the whole world pictures matter more than interactions and reading. So they think that, if blogger Z posts their pictures (that always need to be credited, it's the asking for "permission" to land them more free ads/clients that makes me laugh!) and that entry has success it's because of their pictures. What about the comments???
Let's make an example that involves you. I read your blog every day. And I do so, not because there are "pretty pictures" but because I like your writing style and I oftentimes enjoy your perspective and how you word it even when I disagree.
I challenge you, Annabel, to ask each and every photographer you encounter to ask the wedding designer before featuring their design on their blog! Because if it applies to photographers it ought apply to wedding designers as well. I don't want people to steal MY design because a photographer posted something around without CREDITING me (the way they often do!). But I still think they shouldn't ask me for permission.

Annabel ~ Love My Dress Wedding Blog

Hi Rosanna,

You have a point you feel strongly about and that’s your prerogative of course. I do see it differently however.

At the time a Photographer take a wedding photograph – most of the elements they are photographing have already been paid for and the objects/services thus ‘owned’ by the person wearing them (the dress) and using them (the flowers etc) and even when it comes to the venue, the venue owners will have sacrificied the rights to have images of their building and grounds taken because the Bride & Groom have paid them (vast amounts of cash in most cases) for that privilege. The design copyright of these items is not owned of course, but I’m not talking about designers and florists and venue architects ‘design copyright’ here – I’m talking about Photographers. The Photographer steps in and creates a lifetime of memories using his her professional skill and ability. They are paid *by the Bride and Groom* hard earned cash to do this and handover of their work once it is edited and completed usually comes with a set of terms and conditions that clearly stipulate copyright and distribution limitations. The Photographer has to do this because otherwise, their hard work could be passed off by others as their own – or the images could be sold via a third party without their consent, or as the point my article made – the images could be lifted by any ‘stranger’ to the photographer for the benefit of that ‘stranger’s’ own interests. It’s difficult to articulate in written form, but I hope I’ve made myself a little clearer.

Again, for the purposes of this particular feature, I am writing from a Bloggers and Photographer’s - with, I like to think, a fairly good understanding of how the ‘rest’ of the wedding industry works. You *have* rasied an issue about how easy it is for other people to pass off design elements in Photographer’s work however, and that I guess will always be one of the pitfalls of the internet and it’s lack of ‘policing’ when it comes to image copyright protection. I receive at least 2 emails a week from different Chinese manufacturers who mass produce wedding dresses ‘on the cheap’ – something I strongly disagree with because most of the time, they are replicating other designers work through images they have swiped from the web or who Brides to be have sent them from the web {and I strongly disagree with it more than most possibly, because I am married to a Fashion Designer so I know how much hard work goes in to creating a wedding dress}. So I think I’m getting where you are coming from, BUT, this is a separate debate and not I feel, the responsibility of a wedding Photographer. Every designer out there knows the pitfalls (or at least should) of the internet. The only way they could every fully protect themselves is if they shut down any photographic reproduction of their work – but who in their right mind would want to do this? Most designers are happy to have their designs captured by the wedding photographer! A wedding is a celebratory event – a ‘feel good’ experience - and most designers know fine well their work is likely to be distributed via photographs with little or no credit – I’m not saying that is RIGHT, but in most cases, these designers are happy to have received payment for their goods and to have contributed towards a happy wedding day.

I stand by my original 2 points :)

Many thanks for your comments and contributing towards this feature – it’s an interesting one and I highly value you having taken the time to leave your perspective and thoughts :) Thanks too for your words about my Blog :)

Kindest regards,

Annabel xXx

Louise

I agree entirely with your sentiments - and have no vested interest in any of this, am just a bride-to-be who reads you website regularly. I suppose this is more of a semantic issue. I do have a problem with you saying "You MUST always ask for permission first" (my emphasis). They definitely SHOULD ask permission. As there is no written regulations, no tribunal to punish trangressions, no system of punitive measures for breaches, it definitely is a voluntary code of honour. They should be asking permission. I just don't think that you can set yourself up as the person who lays down the rules for everyone and says: "this is what you all must do."

Karen Shelton

Hi, I'm a Bride planning my 2011 wedding and have taken a keen interest in the whole idea of 'blogging' because I hope to set up my own business planning weddings after my wedding is over. I just want to say I think this is a very well written article. I've read through all the comments too and don't think you are "trying to lay down the law" at all, in fact you do make a point of mentioning how difficult it is to say how you are feeling without sounding like that, so that clearly was not your intention. You make a good point and you make it very well. I have also found it very helpful as no doubt I will have my own blog one day if my plans to set up a business go ahead, and guidance like this from professional bloggers I find so helpful. Keep up the good work, I love your blog, its so inspiring, very well written and always full of beautiful content.
Karen x x

Annabel ~ Love My Dress Wedding Blog

Hi Everyone,

I received an email from my contact Vicky Rowe, at http://www.vintageteasets.co.uk at the weekend - Vicky had attempted to leave a comment but for some reason it wouldn't work, so, I've asked Vicky for her permission to post the comment on her behalf as I think it offers an interesting perspective into this debate, from a 'suppliers' point of view (Vicky runs a business hiring out vintage china tea-sets).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Very interesting blog post this and some interesting comments. Firstly, and most importantly, the images are the photographers and they should be fully credited with permission, no two ways about it,it's their creative work, every photographers style is different its not simply an image of stuff, plus its the law! What interests me is some points that have been raised about suppliers work that has been shot without being credited, so in comes my mighty oar!

For a styled photo shoot I've worked on heavily collaborating with a photographer, I always get the pictures, and almost always find the photographers happy to credit me back in their blogs and I do likewise if I ask them....I've worked to give them the detail specifically and we've done it with a common aim.....they're marketing their work, their style and I'm marketing my styling, we are a team. This is a scenario where we mutually promote one anothers work, this differs heavily from a wedding for example. I do not expect to get any pictures back from any weddings I do, thats the honest truth, I don't like chasing the photographers for them but if I know who they are I mention it would be nice to have a few pics and leave it there. Unless we have a good relationship with one another why would and should they have to go through the hassle of sending me images, I want high res so they need to send me disks....I should pay for them to be honest in that case! they are doing me a favour basically.

So, I think some of that comes down to relationships with people in the business, to be fair I think a wedding photographer crediting every picture he/she uses on their blog post of a wedding they shot would just get out of hand and quite frankly.....what's in it for them??? why should they credit someone who made a handmade favour even thats looking pretty on the table, the dress, the make-up - maybe if people wrote a blog post about that photographer showing their work (with their consent) mutually promoting then this feeling of having 'ones art' exploited, which is what I sense may cease but I don't think we as suppliers can get annoyed by them featuring pictures of things we've styled or created that have been shot for a wedding that we were all instructed and paid to work on. I don't think its etiquette for them to do it, so I think it comes down to relationships with people which is a bit old fashioned to some but it works! I think its lovely that wedding blogs give us credit when they needn't bother either.

I am quite passionate about photography anyway, made some amazing friends who are photographers and am meeting more and more all the time.

When we as a supplier make something, we sell it....out it goes into the big wide world we lose control of who sees it, if people want to replicate it, its life, the internet makes it easier for people to 'steal' ideas and replicate things but the benefits by far out weigh the negatives and I guess its something we have to live with.

Just my perspective, I work hard putting specific shoots together working with photographers and in general find them a pretty accommodating bunch to be honest!

Vicky x
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Maui Weddings

Well displayed Annabel, I have a passion in photography. I love following blogs and there are a few blogs that I really really enjoy.All the photographs are taken looking great but for me the bridal dress photo is just brilliant.However I have noticed 'quick buck' newbies popping up recently that have blatantly ripped off ideas from established blogs.

rebecca@rockmywedding

Interesting Article Annabel and well broached, I haven't had time to read though all the comments but have a few to make so apologies for any repetition.

I'm shocked to hear that there are blogs posting images without credits... it does rankle, when as you say, it takes weeks sometimes of contacting photographer and bride plus laying the post out to put a piece together, then to see it elsewhere, before hand means, for us, it gets binned.. At RMW we don't (as a rule) post weddings that have been elsewhere, but we also appreciate that we have no control thereafter - the images are of course the property of the photographer.

On that note, where a wedding has been found elsewhere first, or in fact, even when it has been found on a photographers blog but then the blogger realises it has been posted elsewhere previously I feel it is only polite to credit the blogger who first posted it. It's just common courtesy, and I know we certainly wouldn't mind people re-posting something found on our site with a link - the correct blogging 'form' for this would be...
'...wanted to share this gorgeous wedding shot by Tobia Tayo, via (or first seen on) Love My Dress...' with both references linked.

At RMW we also make a huge effort to link every supplier featured in a wedding or mentioned by the bride, thus addressing the issue of design ownership etc, plus it helps the bride out!

Love your reference to a 'gentleman's agreement'! If only it were that simple!

xoxo

Miss Wedding

Hi Annabel,
Hope you are well lovely - only just got round to reading this :-)
I agree with what you are saying but I think that lots of suppliers email all the wedding blogs asking them to feature their product/service (its different with photographers maybe) so you see a couple of blogs posting the same thing - I suppose we've all got our different ways of writing but quite often I see people posting about subjects I've written about in the past. To be honest I don't really mind but I think Rebecca at RMW is right and you should credit the blog too (the original source). I did a blogging course recently and it was really interesting to cover things like blogging etiquette, crediting photographers and finding a unique voice.
You're doing a fab job and I suppose that there are always going to be people that want to copy, so in a way its a compliment (poor Abby from Style Me Pretty must get this all the time!) XX

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